Curse

Cracko · Aug 02, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Seriously, what don't you get in this sentence: "People like to gamble."?

Martin Alvito · Aug 02, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

What I fail to understand is how one can value 2 drops higher than 13 of the same drop, for the same price. A Drop contains no value, an item does, regardless of what exactly you value it at. And last I checked having 13 of the items is better than having 2 of it. Feel free to reply again posting how I am wrong.

Uncertainty.

That zkey is NOT a drop. It's a license to get a drop. You don't know what that license is going to give you.

Some people like uncertainty and risk. This is why we have casinos. Everyone knows that the house always wins, because either the odds are stacked in their favor or the house has a rake of some kind. Despite this, people lose billions and billions of dollars to casinos every year. They enjoy the chance to make money even though they know they're going to lose the money they started with more often than not.

These sorts of people would rather use two licenses for a good drop than have the cash value of three or four licenses. Just because you would not make the trade doesn't mean that all other people would not make the trade. Not everyone in the world is you.

CyberNigma · Aug 02, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

you are forgetting again that people value Title points as an "Item" persay.

that's what it comes down to then.. I said repeatedly for people that don't care about the title points. It comes down to you being rank 10 and being upset other people are getting those points. Many people don't care about those points.. at all

people that use the service probably could care less about those points..

I don't care about those points.

I someone cares about those points then 13 is less than 1 because that 13 will not get them any points.

you're just sore. I'm sorry but it's the truth. You've skirted every piece of logic in this thread. I agree there's not much more to say..

If you care about the points (IF) then the service is bad - but so is the 13 option - selling to other players.
If you care about cash, then the CHEST is bad.
If you don't care about point and don't care about cash (you want an item from the chest), the service is good unless that item can be bought from another player for less than the cost of it dropping from the chest.

Dzjudz · Aug 02, 2009, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

it is shown time and time again it is more effective to save for the item you want, then to try to get it from the Z Chest.

And that, my friend, is the whole point of the zaishen service. The people giving the keys and getting double the drops are willing to take the small chance to get a good drop with a number of keys that is worth less than that drop. It would be 'safer' to keep saving the zkeys and selling them for hard cash, but the whole point of the z-chest is that it is a lottery. You can get a freaking great uberexpensive item with only 1 zkey invested. The fact that the zchest turns out much less than the worth of the zkeys invested on average doesn't have anything to do with it. Some people just want to take the chance. Those people don't care about the title points, so double drops sound pretty good. Works out great for both parties (so long as the title guy doesn't pick up the drops). The point of gambling is that you know that the house wins on average, but there is still a chance you're going home with the jackpot.

FengShuiDove · Aug 02, 2009, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

What I fail to understand is how one can value 2 drops higher than 13 of the same drop, for the same price. A Drop contains no value, an item does, regardless of what exactly you value it at. And last I checked having 13 of the items is better than having 2 of it. Feel free to reply again posting how I am wrong.

Because 1 key =/= 1 drop, in the economic sense. A key is worth one attempt at a drop and 5 points towards the title. If you care about the title, offer service or open yourself. If you don't, pay for service and get two drops for the price of one.

Since you're so upset about the math, let's say that the value of each key is 1k for the drop and 3k for the 5 title points. The person offering the service uses 2 keys, or 8k, on the chest. They immediately forfeit 2k of that to the client.

So the client invests 4k and gets 2k back instead of 1k. Therefore, they have gone from 25% efficiency to 50%. A double of the effectiveness. The return is halved from 100% to 50%, but if you don't care about the title, then 75% of the original 100% is worthless. In the opinion of the client, they have doubled the worth of their key.

The service provider uses 8k worth of product and gets 6k in return. They've forfeited 100% return for 75% return, but doubled their effectiveness since all they care about is the title itself. Therefore they gave up the 100% return/75% effectiveness for 75% return/double effectiveness.

Both parties have sacrificed efficiency in favor of something they care about. They have obtained either double chest opens/title points at the expense of single drops or double drops at the expense of no chest opens/title points.

CyberNigma · Aug 02, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

I would ask, what would you tell a person that doesn't care about the title and wants to use the zaishen chest to see what he'll get?

What would you tell him to do. Selling the z-keys is not an option he wants to pursue and the zaishen points are meaningless to him.

EDIT: I know Inde will probably PM me soon reminding me that I fell into Ensign's trap again, but I hope this time I made I point first :-)

Jinkies · Aug 02, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

that's what it comes down to then.. I said repeatedly for people that don't care about the title points. It comes down to you being rank 10 and being upset other people are getting those points. Many people don't care about those points.. at all

people that use the service probably could care less about those points..

I don't care about those points.

I someone cares about those points then 13 is less than 1 because that 13 will not get them any points.

you're just sore. I'm sorry but it's the truth. You've skirted every piece of logic in this thread. I agree there's not much more to say..

If you care about the points (IF) then the service is bad - but so is the 13 option - selling to other players.
If you care about cash, then the CHEST is bad.
If you don't care about point and don't care about cash (you want an item from the chest), the service is good unless that item can be bought from another player for less than the cost of it dropping from the chest.

Good luck to you sir, in your search for players who care neither about money, or titles. And would prefer to siphon their money away to random peeps, only so they can Z Rank you in towns with their shiny ranks rather than give it to people who need it, or friends. I think I have hit home base to people who used this service in hopes of making more than they put in, which I would say, based only on the people I have talked to represent the majority of the people using this service.

Shadowspawn X · Aug 02, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

What I fail to understand is how one can value 2 drops higher than 13 of the same drop, for the same price.

Thats not what is happening, the customer values two drops over one drop because 2>1 nothing hard to understand here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

A Drop contains no value, an item does, regardless of what exactly you value it at.

If we define a drop as a variable term used to describe an unknown item which can span from a humble firewater to a godly EL beetle tonic the drop is worth much more than the identified item in most cases. This is the same economic mechanic which manifests itself in the selling of travelers gifts and unopened B-day gifts in the open trade market. You also observed this "travelers effect" in the price of coffers before the devaluation of the Mallyx mini pet.

Cracko · Aug 02, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Good luck to you sir, in your search for players who care neither about money, or titles. And would prefer to siphon their money away to random peeps, only so they can Z Rank you in towns with their shiny ranks rather than give it to people who need it, or friends. I think I have hit home base to people who used this service in hopes of making more than they put in, which I would say, based only on the people I have talked to represent the majority of the people using this service.

I used Zaishen Services, and I knew perfectly well what I was getting myself into.

I get the double drops, the other guy gets the title, what's bad about that?

"oh hurr durr, you'd get more cash selling the keys". Yes, probably. But I'm a gambler, I like chance, I like getting a lot of money in one drop. Even though I'd probably never get the high-end drop, I still like the feeling of the chest being opened and me getting the double spoils.

This has no correlation with scamming.

TS probably has a job in the statistics circuit.

Engage · Aug 02, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

The zchest's primary purpose is to sate the appetite of gamblers from across GW; that's its purpose. The title, while important, it is just an added incentive, which imo, is not why most people use the zchest. Most people use it on impulse, to hopefully make a decent buck, which is rarely the case. Given this, if someone wants to go use the zhest and gamble some of their money away, it makes sense to use 2 keys instead of one.

It's like saying 20 peanuts is more than 5. Who can disagree with you? Nobody. But, your argument is solely looking at numbers, and lacks the scope to fully gauge this argument.

Martin Alvito · Aug 02, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

I think I have hit home base to people who used this service in hopes of making more than they put in, which I would say, based only on the people I have talked to represent the majority of the people using this service.

Good luck convincing anyone that your motives are pure.

The hilarious thing is that you're just hurting yourself. Even if you succeed in your quixotic mission, you would have been far better off keeping your mouth shut and running your own Zaishen service.

You cannot take away the points that others have already gained by running a Zaishen service. You can, however, decrease the efficiency with which you can use keys in the future if this thread successfully influences opinion. Unless you intend to sit at rank 10 Zaishen indefinitely, you're only making your own life harder.

exploiter · Aug 02, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

As I said I have more than enough to throw away and service my way to z12. I choose not to.

nice to see you bitching about zaishen services here, since you were offering this service few days ago in game in GTOB. 1 key - 2 drops. at least dont lie..
GL trying to stop people from using it with your nonsense logic

Jinkies · Aug 02, 2009, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Good luck convincing anyone that your motives are pure.

The hilarious thing is that you're just hurting yourself. Even if you succeed in your quixotic mission, you would have been far better off keeping your mouth shut and running your own Zaishen service.

You cannot take away the points that others have already gained by running a Zaishen service. You can, however, decrease the efficiency with which you can use keys in the future if this thread successfully influences opinion. Unless you intend to sit at rank 10 Zaishen indefinitely, you're only making your own life harder.

This is simply a replay of the oldest debate in GW. Essentially what you are saying is Hey, yeah dupes suck but don't QQ about it, just dupe yourself!
Or yeah man SF sucks but hey it rapes UWso ima go abuse it. There is no right or wrong answer there nor a real logical one. This thread is not that argument. This thread is a warning to people currently using/ thinking about using this service.

Nobody has posted much about if they should continue to be on Guru, they are after all, like everyone mentioned lottery of a sort. And is undeniably against the rules of Ventari.

Jinkies · Aug 02, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by exploiter

nice to see you bitching about zaishen services here, since you were offering this service few days ago in game in GTOB. 1 key - 2 drops. at least dont lie..
GL trying to stop people from using it with your nonsense logic

I have never even considered offering this service, do not confuse me with Wasabi and others who I know have been doing this.

Cracko · Aug 02, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

This is simply a replay of the oldest debate in GW. Essentially what you are saying is Hey, yeah dupes suck but don't QQ about it, just dupe yourself!
Or yeah man SF sucks but hey it rapes UWso ima go abuse it. There is no right or wrong answer there nor a real logical one. This thread is not that argument. This thread is a warning to people currently using/ thinking about using this service.

Nobody has posted much about if they should continue to be on Guru, they are after all, like everyone mentioned lottery of a sort. And is undeniably against the rules of Ventari.

I like how you completely throw away the gambling-argument.

Jinkies · Aug 02, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cracko

I like how you completely throw away the gambling-argument.

A lottery is a gamble.
GG

Cracko · Aug 02, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

A lottery is a gamble.
GG

Sigh...

12chars.

Shadowspawn X · Aug 02, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Nobody has posted much about if they should continue to be on Guru, they are after all, like everyone mentioned lottery of a sort. And is undeniably against the rules of Ventari.

This is absolutely within the rules of vetari. This is not a lottery, but a trade because a selling of a drop is only selling an unidentified object. As mentioned before as long as the drops are delivered their identified worth is not relevant.

Lux Aeterna · Aug 02, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I know someone who provides Zaishen services, and rather than taking zkeys for free he buys them for 2-3k, less than market price, and gives the seller the drops.

When you buy zkeys and open the chest, you're paying large amounts of gold for a title. That's all.

QueenofDeath · Aug 02, 2009, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Z keys are a gold sync why do you think you should get back a full return on your investment since it's not for an investment anyway it's for a gold sync. Some people just have too much time on their hands and worry too much about what they are getting for their money. We can't help it if you are dumb and put 7500 keys into the game (though I highly doubt you did). You knew Z keys were worth 3.5-4k so you should have just sold them and bought what you wanted. That's what I do.